Author Topic: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings  (Read 14280 times)

Midphase

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Just thought this might be an interesting read for people interested in shooting in ML raw in more demanding settings.

http://www.cinema5d.com/consider-this-before-you-shoot-raw-on-a-canon-5d-mark-iii/

I assume Sebastian Wöber hangs out here, perhaps he can chime in with some additional input. I find the article to bring up some very good points, although I don't know if I agree with the assessment that shooting in raw added as much as 4 days to the shoot.

silvertonesx24

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2014, 06:26:01 PM »
For his specific shoot, it was obviously not the right camera going into it.

I use raw ML for for 90% of my shoots- which are all paid and professional- no cat or tree videos. The other 10% are the ones that I know I don't have the time and money going into it, so I don't use the camera.

baldand

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2014, 06:39:47 PM »
I'm certainly interested to hear what problems made Sebastian describe MlRawViewer as "very buggy"

Markus

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2014, 07:03:55 PM »
There are so many ways of setting up your workflow when working with raw so concluding it's not up to professional work without disclosing the workflow throughly dosen't say much.

Markus

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2014, 07:15:07 PM »
For me it just says that you will run into problem if you don't spend time thoroughly testing a new tool and make sure you've got the best workflow possible in place. Doing something new will always involve a lot of problem solving and you should wait to judge until you are sure that there's no way to solve those problems.

Danne

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2014, 07:15:48 PM »

Mlrawviewer and the ability to record straight to cf makes the workflow a breeze.

Frank7D

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 07:28:52 PM »
Reading this article, I get the impression he didn't even know mlrawviewer existed until after his shoot was over. He refers to it as a "new" program when it's been around for a long time, and he talks about having to transcode before he can review the footage. It looks like he jumped into ml raw without having researched the available workflows adequately.

cinema5D

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2014, 07:56:40 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm the one who wrote the article and I see it's not being liked very much around here.
We've been promoting shooting RAW on the 5D a lot and we've followed the development closely, as much as a non-developer can. But after working with it several times I felt there were some things that people should know up front and since we're working with numerous new cameras I think we do have an objective view on the tools around.

I just wanted to clear some assumptions. No I didn't jump into ml raw without research. Otherwise I couldn't have written the guides for our readers a year ago.
And I mentioned that I needed to load the footage into the editing software, so I could see how it matches the last one, so there was no way around transcoding at least some frames.

My article was not about proving something, or describing a workflow, but about sharing what I know. Maybe it didn't go into enough detail.

Concerning the MlRAWviewer, you wanted to know the bugs:
I used it several times and it crashed 50% of the time, I didn't have a cursor 90% of the time and the colours were mostly overblown, which I'm sure there is a button for to solve, but overall it just felt very buggy and in Alpha stage, so after more and more crashes I left it and decided to look at it again in the future after more development. I wasn't aware the bugs were not known. I'm sure it will all be resolved and I will definitely check back and update our articles with the new development as I always do.

Well, I leave you to continue criticise my article then.


emrahcahit

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2014, 10:47:17 PM »
The conversation ended once he said "I think I would have been 4 days faster with an Arri ALEXA for example"

Maybe all you can say is o'really?

Thomas Worth

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2014, 11:01:29 PM »
Sebastian, I'm working on adding some new functionality to RAWMagic you may find useful. Feel free to contact me if you're interested in chatting. By the way, are you in L.A.?

Francis Frenkel

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2014, 11:29:32 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm the one who wrote the article and I see it's not being liked very much around here.
We've been promoting shooting RAW on the 5D a lot and we've followed the development closely, as much as a non-developer can. But after working with it several times I felt there were some things that people should know up front and since we're working with numerous new cameras I think we do have an objective view on the tools around.

I just wanted to clear some assumptions. No I didn't jump into ml raw without research. Otherwise I couldn't have written the guides for our readers a year ago.
And I mentioned that I needed to load the footage into the editing software, so I could see how it matches the last one, so there was no way around transcoding at least some frames.

My article was not about proving something, or describing a workflow, but about sharing what I know. Maybe it didn't go into enough detail.

Concerning the MlRAWviewer, you wanted to know the bugs:
I used it several times and it crashed 50% of the time, I didn't have a cursor 90% of the time and the colours were mostly overblown, which I'm sure there is a button for to solve, but overall it just felt very buggy and in Alpha stage, so after more and more crashes I left it and decided to look at it again in the future after more development. I wasn't aware the bugs were not known. I'm sure it will all be resolved and I will definitely check back and update our articles with the new development as I always do.

Well, I leave you to continue criticise my article then.

It is not an article, just a undocumented point of view, with confusion and generalities that have no interlinkages among them ... a good mix, between ergonomics, RAW, workflow, professional, firmware, bugs ... a great soup of semantics an unstructured review..
> I would like to undertsand why ? to give what kind of information...

Sorry for my bad english.
Francis Frenkel
www.ffrenkel.com

Audionut

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2014, 12:18:29 AM »
@Midphase  Moving this to general chat.  Thanks for the share.

@Everyone  I haven't read the article, but it's clear that many "pros", and those who maybe aren't so "pro", jump into ML raw thinking it's some highly developed platform, with an easy to use workflow.  Now while those of us acclimatised to using ML raw may be very comfortable with the platform, any article that points out the difficulties of the platform, and makes people think twice before using it, is very welcomed.  At the very least, it may minimise the number of support questions here at the forum, from those people who do jump in blind.

mannfilm

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2014, 01:10:32 AM »
I'm sorry, but this article is totally useless for 99.5% of all production. It was a two week, studio, FX video shoot requiring seamless transitions. Very unusual, has nothing in common with almost all production.

Note that all his complaints are even more applicable to film acquisition, so I guess film is not a professional medium???

He himself admits to hard re-sets and then forgetting to check his settings on re-start? On a paid, 2 week, controlled studio shoot???

MLraw exposure sometimes not right? This issue, and solution, has been known for months.  Did not know about MLrawviewer, which has been out for months?

So apparently he went into a paid 2 week shoot on an unfamiliar camera without doing basic research and prep, and also not doing a single test?

Not surprising he had problems.

The 5dm3 can give you an image very close to the arri at a 1100% lower price point. But the 5dm3 is not a point-and-shoot camera like the arri. To get that quality, you have to put in the work, jump through the hoops, and maintain basic discipline.


ItsMeLenny

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2014, 03:36:32 AM »
I'm certainly interested to hear what problems made Sebastian describe MlRawViewer as "very buggy"

I think the "very buggy" was the user not the program :P


Concerning the MlRAWviewer, you wanted to know the bugs:
I used it several times and it crashed 50% of the time, I didn't have a cursor 90% of the time and the colours were mostly overblown, which I'm sure there is a button for to solve, but overall it just felt very buggy and in Alpha stage, so after more and more crashes I left it and decided to look at it again in the future after more development. I wasn't aware the bugs were not known. I'm sure it will all be resolved and I will definitely check back and update our articles with the new development as I always do.

No explanation of build version, operating system, or operating hardware?

colech

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2014, 04:49:08 AM »
First post here, please be nice to me... gulp.

Anyway, I just wanted to chime in to say that I really appreciated the article.  There are some good points here, but the way I read the article, it wasn't designed to be a technical review of ML. Before I saw this thread, I took the article as a quick and dirty "I'm frustrated with how my last shooting experience went and here's why on a high level."  I am not a seasoned RAW shooter yet so I found it quite useful to help me avoid or at least be aware of some of the pitfalls.

What I was hoping to find here was solutions/alternative to the issues he had. So, I'm hoping you guys can kindly suggest ways that he can make his next experience better and I'll bet you he'll write another article down the road about his ML RAW Experience 2.0.  In addition, that would help me and others reading this. I for one don't doubt that he is writing from a real personal experience, not a terminate ML standpoint.  After all he's been writing a number of helpful ML articles in the past.

budafilms

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2014, 06:52:14 AM »
Hi everyone,

I'm the one who wrote the article and I see it's not being liked very much around here.
We've been promoting shooting RAW on the 5D a lot and we've followed the development closely, as much as a non-developer can. But after working with it several times I felt there were some things that people should know up front and since we're working with numerous new cameras I think we do have an objective view on the tools around.

I just wanted to clear some assumptions. No I didn't jump into ml raw without research. Otherwise I couldn't have written the guides for our readers a year ago.
And I mentioned that I needed to load the footage into the editing software, so I could see how it matches the last one, so there was no way around transcoding at least some frames.

My article was not about proving something, or describing a workflow, but about sharing what I know. Maybe it didn't go into enough detail.

Concerning the MlRAWviewer, you wanted to know the bugs:
I used it several times and it crashed 50% of the time, I didn't have a cursor 90% of the time and the colours were mostly overblown, which I'm sure there is a button for to solve, but overall it just felt very buggy and in Alpha stage, so after more and more crashes I left it and decided to look at it again in the future after more development. I wasn't aware the bugs were not known. I'm sure it will all be resolved and I will definitely check back and update our articles with the new development as I always do.

Well, I leave you to continue criticise my article then.

Hi Sebastian, like you are here explaining your opinion it's a good time to say my opinion about 5D Cinema web. A couple of weeks ago your site public an articule about promote the first full length movie doing in RAW. I write to your site, by Facebook and Twitter with facts about the first movie was did it a year ago: an I'm the director, in Buenos Aires, Argentina.

For me be the first don't give any credit or record. It's to probe that ML it's solid like a rock. And have the quality of the big and pro brands. Be the first about a year ago - I send you the trailers from Vimeo dated 1 year ago - it's a fact. But your site were promoting - and getting some donation - to the first movie that going to be made by ML RAW.

Your new article describe more a problem than a benefit.

I think you know perfect that this is an open source community and a good way to help us is writing good articules - not about my movies - to get more people here cooperating and donating too. Put that ML RAW it's " more a problem" don't benefit any work here. Only promote other brands, stores, that of course you are free to get money from there. Your article it's not polite. And it's not professional plenty of adjetives, opinions with information that today it's obsolete.

I hope you can write better articules about us, and respect that opinions are not fact. Inform it's a responsibility.

Thanks again.

Africashot

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2014, 10:22:12 AM »
I kinda rushed through the article, not much there to draw my attention, the fact that the 5D3 is actually a stills camera seems pretty obvious and I am generally a bit tired of the Alexa comparisons - what had me astound is that it actually took them two weeks to shoot that ad - what exactly were they doing for that long?
ML 5D2 & T3i

chmee

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2014, 12:05:27 PM »
(from Smartphone)

To us, ml-users:
1* statistics say, not every article can be positive.
2* instead of complaining, learn something from it.

Regarding the article:
1* most of the critics affect products like bmcc as well.
2* compairing with the primus is easy. If you'd work with arriraw, some of the problems would meet you as well.
3* read, learn, know the problems of a not well known recordingsystem. Did you have made some tests before you jumped into the cold water?
4* if you'd know these problems, you wouldnt use ml for your project. But you did. Why?

Regards chmee

pv25pv

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2014, 12:53:31 PM »
all i know is that i have raw video for free with a 2500€ camera..ML has been very stable for me too and everything is still work in progress..and for those who are doing pro paid jobs with ML should at least be thankful to the Devs
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g3gg0

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2014, 01:00:53 PM »
To us, ml-users:
1* statistics say, not every article can be positive.
2* instead of complaining, learn something from it.

absolutely that what i would write here.

plus
3* see this article not as an article, but a commentary on using ML the same thing we see on forums on a regular basis.

ask for things, try to understand what he did wrong and explain - or disprove it.
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Hisham

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2014, 05:39:25 AM »
— simply the Pro Golden rule to solve all Your Problems is to think before You Shoot :)
thank You for Your review and sharing Your thoughts with us , i am very new to using ML
” almost one month now ”
but i worked in the field for a very longtime 24 years.. so from my little experience in ML and my long one in the media field i can say easly
that ..
You are totally wrong ..wrong in my opinion
first thing i noticed that You wanted a professional results and workflow but You approached Your Project in non Professional way
i build my judge here not for the good reasons said above
but Your words
” Even with the new and updated in-camera playback feature it is not easy to tell how well a shot has turned out/// until You say ” to do it 100 times a day then you see that you lose a lot of time”
// well wasn’t that obvious b4 You Shoot ??????
if not then You was far away from pro cas pro tests everything b4 the real work ,,
and if You tested this and had this opinion before Shooting then this wasnt  a clever action and what was You trying then all 4 days You stayed with the camera ????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Man there is a golden rule in Pro WORKFLOW ” test and judge and get Prepared and the most important word think please think before Shooting ”
that what i know since i was assistant Director in movies ..
i will not comment on the discovery You found after shooting that workflow is complicated cas this is the strangest thing i found  !!!!!!
all what You are wrong ” in my opinion of course with all my respect ” came from the unprofessional  way You approached this project with ,,
ALL Your Points does not need a real project to see if they are true or not ,,or if there are a work around it but ……
“” Another Important Rule ,,Pro do not waste a 4 days or 4 hours even from there valuable Preparing time to the Project in trying to learn and figure a new system they do that when they are not busy , can You imagine a DOP at the early years of cinema trying to understand what is anamorphic and how and why to do it just 2 weeks away from shooting and the middle of there valuable time ?????””
Man there is too much in Your Post ,, it seems to me like You may want to use a steadycam smoothly for the first time just 2 weeks away from Your Project how is that sounds ?? :) if You do that You will end like You did telling every one that steadycam is much complicated and not to consider it Pro enough to Your Level
.. there is another rule is called the right tool for the job if my Project is so much complicated and need a shot by shot Pixel Peeping and watching every single take to observe very fine details then as a Pro the first thing i do even b4 camera is Arrange what monitor what trusted connections etc as vincent laforet said once b4 if monitoring is needed to be very Precise then he wouldnt trust a monitor below 10000$
Man You Missed a lot in this Post and You Tortured Yourself in this Project not cas of ML fault but cas You wasnt doing the Pro approach
Last thing i wana ask You did You ever Shoot on 35mm film ?? cas if You didnt that may be the reason ,, and do not try to do it You will hate it it isnt Pro enough and complicated workflow than You ever think it is plus it is amateur the camera does not record sound and can not monitor what You did at all ” You can see what video assist bring to You and that is Lately only ” and You can not record a lot on single reel :) .. i miss super 35mm days it was the days of Pro People !
—-
sorry for my Long Reply and sorry for my bad english as it isnt my main
and sorry if You hated my words i didnt mean to hurt at all
but promise me You will think before You Shoot next time :)
and Promise me that You will never use ML or any raw workflow on Your next News Shooting cas You will be unhappy again :)

Hisham

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2014, 05:44:16 AM »
""  But after working with it several times I felt there were some things that people should know """
You waited to work on Projects to find that the workflow is complicated and it takes a lot of space on memory card ???
ok thank You !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so how do You find 35mm film camera ???
unpro tool too ?

peoplemerge

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2014, 11:21:05 PM »
Sebastian's article is welcome in that, yes, there are things we can learn from it.  And improve.

I've always been curious... on why the site's name is "cinema5D" -- doesn't the name make you think it's intended to be 5D expert advice geared toward 5D users?  Or DLSR filmmaking in general?

To borrow a term from our marketing friends, I wish the "Brand Promise" of cinema5D would align more closely with ML.

Anyway as to the handling and workflow, I think ML Raw is geared more toward people who actually own Canon and by default invest the time to learn it's quirks.  More than someone used to film or pro gear, or is out of film school where they were trained in Alexa and Red. 

But I think he got that message across to those who need to hear it in the way they'd understand.

KurtAugust

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Re: New not-so-kind article on shooting ML raw in professional settings
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2014, 09:31:56 AM »
I also find the article useful in the way that producers sometimes decide on a camera, even if it's not the tool for the job. With the growing succes of ML, some may think it's perfect for everything, even if we as users know it's not.

So I consider it as a warning to unexperienced users and producers thinking they will get perfect results without the effort. A 5d3 with ML shooting RAW reallly is an camera owner's thing, where your entire workflow is thoroughly tested and proven and you know where you will lose time and gain quality.

So I can quite appreciate it, even if it makes me raise my eyebrows at times.

I remember how Red users used to explode when someone dared to criticize their camera the first couple of years. Where as a matter of fact, it DID have a lot of loose ends and problems, but they had learned to live with them or work around them.
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